On a special episode (first released on April 3, 2024) of The Excerpt podcast: Use the word sociopath in conversation, and you’re bound to see some raised eyebrows, or worse. The word itself has become less of a mental diagnosis and more of an insult you hurl at someone. But what does it really mean to be a sociopath? Dr. Patric Gagne offers a definition from both a clinical and a personal perspective. Her new book is called “Sociopath: A Memoir.” Gagne’s first-hand account of how she came to terms with her own sociopathy sheds light on an often demonized and misunderstood mental disorder.
Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
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Taylor Wilson:
Hello and welcome to The Excerpt. I’m Taylor Wilson. Today is Wednesday, April 3rd, 2024, and this is a special episode of The Excerpt.
Use the word sociopath in conversation, and you’re bound to see some raised eyebrows or worse. It’s less of a mental diagnosis and more of an insult to hurl at someone. But what does it really mean to be a sociopath? Our guest today has the unique perspective to offer a definition from both a clinical and a personal perspective.
Dr. Patric Gagne, the author of Sociopath, a fascinating memoir that follows her journey to come to terms with her own sociopathy and shed light on an often demonized and misunderstood mental disorder. Thanks so much for joining us, Patric.
Patric Gagne:
Thanks for having me.
Taylor Wilson:
Your book starts out with some pretty shocking admissions. In your introduction, in fact, you write, “I’m a liar. I’m a thief. I’m emotionally shallow. I’m mostly immune to remorse and guilt. I’m highly manipulative. I don’t care what other people think.” Can you start off by just telling us what defines a sociopath?
Patric Gagne:
Yes. I’m really glad that this was the first question because understanding what sociopathy is and isn’t often gets in the way of really seeing and understanding who I am and who others like me are. The number one question I get asked is, what is the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy? It’s a tricky question because they’ve reclassified sociopathy as secondary psychopathy. But if you’re looking at it through that lens, then the true primary psychopath has certain brain abnormalities that make it impossible to move through emotional development. While they’re able to feel the inherent primary emotions, happiness, sadness, et cetera, they’re not able to experience the so-called learned social emotions: love, empathy, even jealousy to a certain extent.
But sociopaths are different. Sociopathy now clinically referred to as secondary psychopathy does not appear to be the result of any biological abnormality. Sociopaths can progress through normal emotional development. They can learn the social emotions. They just learn it a bit differently. In the book, I refer to this as an emotional learning disability because, for me, that’s what it felt like. But the biggest difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is that sociopathy can be treated.
Taylor Wilson:
I’m curious, Patric, how old were you when you made this realization that you might be a sociopath?
Patric Gagne:
Well, I knew that I was different at a very early age. The terminology came a bit later. I didn’t really understand what that word was until I visited a prison system. I talk about this in the book as a child, I visited a prison and one of the guards used that word. When I asked him to describe it, I recognized myself in his description. I knew that a graveyard shift’s corrections officer probably wasn’t the best to discuss my potential diagnosis, but it definitely lit the spark for me to pursue it later in life.
Taylor Wilson:
It’s interesting. That incident with the guard at the prison… It really felt to me like he was putting down anyone who might relate to the term sociopath. You also wrote that this word sociopath makes people feel really more than they think. Why do you think that is?
Patric Gagne:
Because I think that the word has been misappropriated to mean anything and all things scary. I represent an inconvenient truth, which is that not all sociopaths look like monsters. That’s frightening to people who would prefer to believe that sociopaths are easy to spot and if they were living with one or associating with one, they would know it immediately. That’s not the case.
Taylor Wilson:
Getting back to your book, it seems it’s really a story of your journey to understand your condition/your reality and also figure out how to accept the way you are, Patric. A lot of listeners might identify with the struggles you faced here. Why do you think it’s so much harder for someone who’s a sociopath?
Patric Gagne:
Well, I don’t think we’re allowed. I don’t think that sociopathy… I don’t think, I know. Sociopathy has not been given the research, the attention, the respect that all of the other personality disorders have been given, despite the fact it was one of the first-ever defined. When I was a kid, I learned very quickly that deceit was the best way for me to stay safe. The reason for that was because anytime I admitted to not feeling things the way I was “supposed to,” anytime I confessed to things that I felt the urge to do, I was punished for it. I was judged for it. I learned very quickly the best way to exist as someone who related to my personality type was to hide. I think that most people who share my personality type feel the same way.
Taylor Wilson:
Patric, where do you think the line is between sociopaths who are more like you in trying to reckon with their condition and live a healthy, productive life and someone who lets their destructive or violent impulses control their lives?
Patric Gagne:
I think that, in my case, and this does seem to align with the research, deceit for me was a coping mechanism that evolved into a lifestyle. I was very fortunate that I had the resources to go to college and to research these different personality types that were like mine/different than mine. I really was fortunate that I had the benefit of education, and I was able to break the cycle. A lot of sociopaths don’t have those privileges. A lot of people have those privileges. I think that’s really where the line is, is in that understanding. I think once you understand your personality type… And I think this really goes for anyone. Once you understand yourself, you have a much easier time adjusting your behavior and your reactions to things.
Taylor Wilson:
As you mentioned, you grew up with some privilege given your family’s economic and social status. I’m curious, Patric, have you counseled any sociopaths from different racial or class backgrounds? How do race and class fit into this conversation?
Patric Gagne:
Not as many as I would like. But I cannot imagine that race and class don’t factor tremendously into this equation. I am very aware that I am white. I am blonde. I am from a higher socioeconomic background. Therefore, I’m going to get away with things that other people will not get away with. That’s just a fact. Again, I had the resources to receive an education to continue to educate myself. That’s one of the reasons that I wrote Sociopath. I wanted to provide a humanized understanding of an otherwise dehumanized disorder. I know there’s nothing more accessible than stories and lived experiences. There are people living on the periphery, not knowing what’s wrong, parents struggling with their kids, and this book is my bridge to show them through my story that they can start their own journeys and they can live a high-functioning life.
Taylor Wilson:
Patric, a lot of your story focuses on your fundamental desire to experience love and friendship, something that required a lot of understanding, too, from the people in your life. How has your understanding of these emotions evolved over time?
Patric Gagne:
I think, at first, it was a cognitive understanding. I understood the concept of love. But again, it’s not that I was incapable of experiencing it. It just took me a bit longer to learn. When I’ve been asked specifically about love and my experience of it, I can only speculate as to what the neurotypical experience of love is. But my experience of love has always felt more like homeostasis: not possessive, not ego-driven. That’s my experience. That has grown over time. That has grown over experience with having a partner/having children. I’m very fortunate that I have these people in my life who were patient with me and willing to withstand my learning curve.
Taylor Wilson:
How have you navigated building those relationships? Do you have any tips for anyone listening?
Patric Gagne:
I was given the space in a lot of instances to have my own emotional journey. But in other cases, I wasn’t given the space. I had to demand the space. I think that’s really important. If you are someone who feels as though you are neurodivergent, there’s nothing inherently immoral about a capacity to experience emotion. That’s really important. I think it’s just as important to say, “Look, just because I feel differently doesn’t mean that my feelings don’t count, and I deserve space to experience my emotions, express my emotions, and communicate about those emotions as much as someone who is neurotypical.”
Taylor Wilson:
Patric, you also have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. In the book, you talked a lot about the lack of treatment options for sociopaths. Even with up to 5%, this number surprised me, of the population having this disorder. Have you been able to offer treatment to others with your condition? What’s that experience been like for you?
Patric Gagne:
Well, first of all, I want to speak to the prevalence. You’re right. Statistics say that the prevalence of sociopathy is just under 5%. But considering that most of the diagnostic interviews take place within the prison system, there’s no way that that percentage isn’t much higher. But you’re right. Let’s just stick with 5%. My experience is that talk therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy were tremendously helpful in the treatment of the anxiety that typically accompanies sociopathy. That treatment helps with the behavior. The behavior is the number one thing that anyone who identifies as sociopathic needs to take a look at because that’s the behavior that can be destructive.
Taylor Wilson:
This book is deeply personal, obviously, as we’ve outlined. It’s at times unflattering to yourself, Patric. Why put yourself out there like this? What was the impetus for writing this book?
Patric Gagne:
I read somewhere recently that viewing someone as morally bad reduces compassion and desire to help in neurotypical individuals. I thought sociopaths are known for being singularly evil. I get it. To a large extent, we’ve earned that reputation. But that’s only one part of the equation. Research says that sociopathy is a far more nuanced personality type than many people realize. Like many disorders, it exists on a spectrum. That was my experience. I wanted to bring that lived experience into the public so that more people could understand. Not all sociopaths are created equal. There’s more to this personality type than most people would understand.
Taylor Wilson:
Patric, if there’s one nugget that you hope listeners walk away with from this conversation, what would that be?
Patric Gagne:
There is nothing inherently immoral about having limited access to emotion. It’s not what you feel. It’s what you do.
Taylor Wilson:
Sociopath: A Memoir by Patric Gagne is on bookshelves now. Thanks for being on the excerpt, Patric. Really fascinating book and conversation.
Patric Gagne:
Thanks for having me.
Taylor Wilson:
Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Bradley Glanzrock, for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to [email protected]. Thanks for listening. I’m Taylor Wilson, back tomorrow morning with another episode of The Excerpt.